Breeding and Ethics

[crocodile]

Nice one Scarlett .... always happy to engage a heavyweight. Yes , as you indicated elsewhere I am blinkered very much - towards the health and rights of dogs to as natural a life as possible free from the stresses us humans put on them as I've said elsewhere. That's why I think your opinion on dogs is so very typical of the ego centric human attitude of dogs have to fit into our world so if the doorway isn't wide enough have their tails chopped off.
Way back when wolves ran free they chose to co exist with humans and it worked in the interests of both. Then they moved in and became companions and shared shelter food and security....then the flawed trait that has blighted mankind since the begining struck and he had to control the animal and engage him in servitude - and now the domesticated dog in all its cute and hideous forms does our bidding and we chop and change it to suite our fancy. Women, children, blacks, the poor...have all suffered the same way - and in some cases still do. In my wildest dreams I hope that one day the tables will be turned and dogs will rule us ....! somehow I think we'd get treated far better. Idealistic I know but sometimes its dreams that help us to cope with
the harsh reality

Brilliant to see the law come down on that St Bernard Breeder in the East Midlands. Apparently in defense her solicitor said ' the former kennel owner who had bred St Bs for 30 years had been well respected in dog breeding circles' She had been involved with the Kennel Club for sometime. Its amazing that initially she had denied the cruelty charge. Thank Gods that's another one out of the way.

[Scarlett]

[quote="crocodile"]Nice one Scarlett .... always happy to engage a heavyweight. Yes , as you indicated elsewhere I am blinkered very much - towards the health and rights of dogs to as natural a life as possible free from the stresses us humans put on them as I've said elsewhere. That's why I think your opinion on dogs is so very typical of the ego centric human attitude of dogs have to fit into our world so if the doorway isn't wide enough have their tails chopped off.

What you think and what you know are to very different things then aren't they. We are actually not that different in our ideals about dogs. I dont think that a Lurcher nor an deerhound Wolfhoune etc should have to suffer a life of living in domestic conditions where every time it wags its tail, damage occurs. I have seen such damage occur time and time again to the same dogs and its only after years of treating the injuries when the vet has leeched enough money from the owner that it is suggested by the vet to have the tail removed.

Way back when wolves ran free they chose to co exist with humans and it worked in the interests of both. Then they moved in and became companions and shared shelter food and security....then the flawed trait that has blighted mankind since the begining struck and he had to control the animal and engage him in servitude - and now the domesticated dog in all its cute and hideous forms does our bidding and we chop and change it to suite our fancy.

Did you teach your granny how to suck eggs too?

Women, children, blacks, the poor...have all suffered the same way - and in some cases still do. In my wildest dreams I hope that one day the tables will be turned and dogs will rule us ....! somehow I think we'd get treated far better. Idealistic I know but sometimes its dreams that help us to cope with the harsh reality

You're starting to sound like an extremist who has lost touch with reality

Brilliant to see the law come down on that St Bernard Breeder in the East Midlands.

Yes wasn't it

Apparently in defense her solicitor said ' the former kennel owner who had bred St Bs for 30 years had been well respected in dog breeding circles' She had been involved with the Kennel Club for sometime. Its amazing that initially she had denied the cruelty charge. Thank Gods that's another one out of the way.[/quote]

Another what out of the way?

[crocodile]

mmmmm someone who loves waving her handbag around eh ......? Ok while ducking and diving to miss the blows if someone has a dog in that kind of situation then its the house and owners who are unsuitable not the dogs tail and the dog should be re homed. I know you agree with me on that.

My granny - God rest her soul - used to have a lab x collie....what a beautie. She used to sneak it all sorts of treats. I tried to tell he but she never listened.
I suppose i was writng with the wider panorama of the forum audience rather than just your good self - even though we're having this little conversation Ms Scarlett - others are peeking in and I hope they understand where I'm coming from;maybe not all are as well read as you are...

Sometimes what may sound like an extremist view is what a lot of people think but aren't always prepared to say - mainly out of fear of being labelled a crank. I'm quite secure in my views ; I would be very happy for dog breeds to disappear - they're (wo)man made and only for the benefit of (wo)men. What we see today is not natural evolution just forced designer dog for our whims and wishes. Sadly there's a lot of dogs who are not in a position where they can fullfill they'e instinctive needs anymore ( what they've been bred for ) and they're often the ones who keep dog behaviorists, psychologists and counsellors in buisness. Let them go back to what they were when they were running free (I'm sure that's what they dream about when they make those funny little sounds when they're sleeping - although I'm sure there are those who will probably say they're dreaming they just won Crufts)). I know that will never happen so I just focus my resources on helping out with the sad fallout of broken dogs - as its hardly their fault - and there's plenty of them.

Another dog abuser ... and it was wonderful to see the dogs who had been rescued in their new homes.

Well that wasn't too bad was it ??

[Scarlett]

I can agree to a certain extent but there are a good few 'honest breeds out there, my chosen breed being one of them, probably a mix of several breeds in its native area prior to crossing the alps and settling in Rottweil to become a much admired dog valued for it many attributes as a working dog and family pet, there hasn't been that much tweaking except for try to breed out the white chests which no matter how hard we try will never happen completely. Many Breeds evolved without the existance of man but thats another post.

There are many more breeds I just feel so sorry for but I am not personally responsible for the people the own and continue to breed them.

As for letting dogs be dogs that really isn't possible anymore. As a child our dogs had no boundries really, we lived on a farm and our dogs caught their own dinner every day, our dogs NEVER wore a collar but were calm obedient and respectful. I can't imagine the average pet dog owner these days opening their door whilst their dog disappears for an hour to find its own food - these days those dogs are known as strays!

[crocodile]

Respects Ms Scarlett - I appreciate your piece and I'm sure if you came across any untoward behaviour on your travels you'd do the buisness on behalf of the dogs.
Yes you're right about canine breeds evolving ...naturally....and that's the beauty of wild evolution. Animals evolving to survive. I sometimes go and sit with a couple of wolves that are at a sanctuary near me and just marvel at what magnificent animals they are. I've just been involved in a chicken rescue program and I didn't realise what characters they can be ; just watching them do their thing around the place - brilliant. Nature is the wonder of the world

A close friend often talks about the days when her boys were young, that when they used to go out to play in the morning during weekends and school holidays their collie used to go with them and she wouldn't see any of them until they were hungry - which sometimes wasn't until it got dark. They'd all come back together tired and happy. Happy days eh.

The first book ever put into my hands as a child to read was Shadow the Sheepdog by Enid Blyton.... The image of a young lad having all sorts of adventures with his best pal has never left me so I suppose I will always be a bit of a sentementalist

One question though ( you don't get away that lightly...) why do you need to 'beed out the white chest' from Rottweilers; I've got a rescue rottie with a small white stripe down his chest - he looks fine ...is fine ... He's my teacher and inspiration. What's the big deal ???? I sometimes wonder if some of the dog breeders moved on to humans all those with ginger hair and /or freckles would soon be extinct.........

[Scarlett]

Speaking as an owner of chickens, I agree chicken are huge characters and not that different to dogs in many ways, mine enjoy a free range way of life, most are shut up at nights to protect them from foxes but the loony leghorns sometimes insist of roosting on barn rafters. any excess cockrals from a hatch are not 'dispatched' early but are allowed to have 6-10 months free ranging doing what busy chickens do to to get their nutrients, before they are finally put to good use as dog fodder, better to have had a bit of a quality of life than none at all. I hate to see people keeping chickens in little more than a large rabbit run, and hate factory factory farming, yes it may produce cheap food but it certainly isn't healthy to eat and just not right for the animals involved.

Well, you will never breed out the occasional dribble of white that occurs in some puppies, it is a part of their mongeral heritage, lets just say that for the show ring no white is more desirable, you do actually see a thumbprint or tiny dribble of white on some dogs occasionally in the show ring.

Heres a pic of Alfie one of my beautiful Cochin boys and yes that is an electric fence, at certain times of the year I need hatching eggs to remain pure - also some of the fiesty breeds like leghorn cockrals are quite agressive and would have Alfie for breakfast!

[Scarlett]

... but I also have a special affinity for crossbred chickens especially the Silkie x Pekin, they can be beautiful

[marilyn]

What i'd like to ask you Scarlett is whether you'd consider having white chickens ?? Someone said white German Shepherds would never be welome at shows and you say that 'no white' is more desirable in Rotties AT SHOWS. But loads of dogs have some white colour in them. i've just come back from the park with Dixie and there was a guy there with a samoyd (that's what he told me it was - i think i spelt it right) He was looking after it for his brother. what a beautiful looking dog but oh dear it was all white !!! I thought colour was a political and racial problem not one that we put on our dogs. I suppose one of you show people will say this is why I need lesson in genetics Well if you do please make it simple because I really want to know what all this colour prejudice is all about

[Scarlett]

What I'd like to ask you Marilyn is what on earth makes you think I wouldn't have white chicken? I was not solely responsible for writting the breed standard for Rotties - you'd have to take that up with the Germans - the first Rott puppy I put a deposit on had a white chest, didn't bother me at all.

Dont start having a go at me about colour predjudice like I say I have never been responsible for any breed standard.

Heres a pic of some of my Light Sussex - one can only assume they are called 'light' not white as that would be Politically Incorrect in the eyes of the the anal wouldn't it.

[Scarlett]

and one of my 'white' silkies

[Maddie]

OMG!!! Colour prejudice now!!!!

Breed Standards were initially written by blokes, yes blokes, who wanted to make sure none of the breeds died out and remained fit for function. For instance, the Rottweiler was bred as a working dog, which had to be able to trot all day and not tire. This trotting all day isnt simply a fitness issue, but a conformation issue too, which is why the breed standard states a rottie should have the front and rear angulation etc it does. Pet owners and puppy farmers wouldnt have a clue how to interpret a breed standard and consequently, many rotts, are badly bred and couldnt do the job they were originally bred for for 30 mins, never mind all day. If it werent for the dedicated breeders who are trying to do the best job they can, the Rottweiler and other breeds would have died out long ago, no doubt to your delight, crocodile!!

[marilyn]

I don't mean to sound like I'm having a go at anyone personally it's just that a couple of you seem to bang on so much about showing and breeding and I just don't get some of the logic behind it - I mean what's a dog trotting all day got to do with it being a problem that he's got a white dribble on his chest which you said breeders have been trying to get rid of.? Maddie said somewhere else that white GS wouldn't qualify for dog shows - but why ?. Does that mean a white samoyd wouldn't ? What's wrong with trying to get a sensible answer and sounding frustrated when I don't get one ??? Anyway I don't think there's a need for many Rotties to be trotting all day now is there so apart from shows why does it really matter.

Anyway I think the chickens look gorgeous