Breeding and Ethics

[Maddie]

Thought I would start a new thread, rather than keep going on the other one, which was a question about breeds, as opposed to breeding.

I will speak from my point of view as a rottweiler breeder here. I do agree that many breeds have been bred to extreme in certain points, like the Pug mentioned which short-nosed and on little short legs. The Bulldog is another one often quoted, heads so big most bitches need a ceasarian to have pups etc.

I am lucky in that a rottie hasnt had any points bred to extreme, although we do have some health problems, like most rotts die of some form of cancer, HD and ED, Entropian etc.

Before I breed a litter, my bitches are hip scored and only if they have a good score are they used for breeding. We have bred 4 litters from our bitch and now she is retired from maternal duties as she turns 7 this week. We have at least 12 months between litters, usually more. We painstakingly look for a Male Stud for her, taking many months to choose and make our minds up. We have to look at faults in our bitch and then look for a male that doesnt have the same faults so we can improve on faults. We only ever breed when we wanty to keep a puppy for the showring ourselves, we dont breed just for the hell of it to make money. If making money was the aim, I'd have to be a puppy farmer!

Before breeding, I attended several Breed Seminars (which included taking an exam, which I passed with flying colours!)with experts talking about rotties and experts on breeding. I also read several books on the subject, I studied basic genetics (am starting to study genetics further, but its complicated!!) and listened to lots of people who have been breeding rotties for decades. Our aim is to breed healthy, good temperament puppies first and foremost. Conformation and breed type come second.


I have to go now, its school picking up time!! Hope that given you some food for thought, Marilyn!! Will continue later!

[Maddie]

Whilst I freely admit the are some unscrupulous 'show breeders' out there, I will say that the majority of them are very caring, knowledgable breeders, who love their dogs very much.

The biggest problem pedigree dogs have is puppy farmers, we all know about those! And the average pet owner who decides it would be nice for their family bitch to have a litter without any thought of any health testing which may be available for their breed, no nothing of the dogs behind their bitch or any health problems which may or may not have occured, find the nearest owner with a male and hey presto they have a litter without a second thought. And the majority of these buyers who get these puppies do no research into the breed, or the so-called breeder or the parents of the puppies and then complain when their puppy has problems. WHilst I can sympathise with these owners, its only up to a point as the majority dont do any research. I wouldnt spend money buying anything without researching before parting without my hard-earned cash!! We spent months finding breeders and looking at litters up and down the country before finally deciding to buy our first bitch and her breeder is there for us 24/7 365 days of the year no matter what for.

We have had many many people get in touch with us about problems with puppies and older dogs bought from puppy farmers and back street breeders and quite frankly, it really gets me annoyed that the breeders of these dogs just dont wanna know once they have got their money!! When we sell a puppy, the owners get a puppy pack full of info and they know we are there for them for the lifetime of the dog. If for any reason, any owner needs to give up their dog at any age, they know to come back to us, we will always take the dogs back, rather than have it shipped about and maybe end up in some Rescue. If all breeders took dogs back they bred, we wouldnt need Rescue organisations now would we????? Rescues do a sterling job, and we support them whenever we can. We usually donate something from every litter we have to a |Rottie Rescue.

[paul]

i know what marilyn said, but she did say you realy care and love your dogs ,but for every breeder like you there are 2 or 3 that do it for money,sorry to keep harping on about my dog (willow)but we did all the checks we rang the kennel club over this breeder they said they were ok and had been breeding for over 25yrs,the local goldie club recomended them too,

so was this just a one off or have they breed dogs under 1year old before im thinking yes and will probably do it again because they answer to no one,and im sorry but it makes me wary of any other dog breeders.

as for pugs,bulldogs,e.t.c have they not become what they are through breed standards,who makes these standards up,and why have they changed so much with some breeds over the years,and not for the better,
dog put there trust in us so why do some people think it right to betray this trust by inter breeding father with daughter,sorry but to me thats just sick, just to get in there eyes perfection.when i was a kid you never herd of all these thing wrong with dogs,nearly all breeds suffer H.D,and cancer.
sorry if i waffled on.

[marilyn]

That was a nifty move Mad - just like on the show ring floor eh ? .
Ever since I looked back at some of your entries I am aware of your knowledge and experience and would never knock you for that - in fact I have found some of the information quite useful. I don't think we will ever agree on the ethics of dog shows - the X factor for dogs ( who comes out top eh ? ) - probably we're as far apart as the miles that separate us.
I met a guy out the other day walking his Rottie and we got chatting ( one of the great things about dog walking ) He said he would never have a Rottie with a tail because it just don't look right. I struggled to keep my mouth shut (suprise suprise) - his dog was giving me strange looks and Dixie wasn't too happy so I carried on BUT I WAS SO ANGRY. What about you Mad - do you cut your puppies tails off or does the vet do it ? I think a dog without a tail is like the X factor without Simon and, on the dark side, I think its really cruel. It's like wiping the smile permanently off someones face.
Sweet of you to give me a mention Mad but I really would like to see others joining in especially when you see how many read the dam things. I must admit I thought I'd be out of here by now but with very little on weekday telly I'm finding it all quite interesting. Glad to see you getting stuck in Paul

[Maddie]

I no longer dock my puppies, it became illegal as of April 2007. There is no way around the Law for rottiesd either. This is another thing that gets on my nerves - 'breeders' that are still docking tails, and they must be doing it themselves because no sane vet would be doing it!!

Even if the Law were changed back I still wouldnt dock, a Rottie is still a rottie with or without a tail. I only have one at the mo with a tail because all the others were born before 2006 apart from Magnum, my puppy.

As for the pugs and bulldogs etc, some of these breed standards were written 100 years or so ago. Many of them have now been changed by the KC in recent years and things are changing withtin these breeds. They aer getting healthier as the years go by. You have to understand, things cannot be changed overnight, it takes quite a few generations for permanent changes to become fixed within the breed. Genetics is a complicated thing!!

I do enjoy a discussion, and yes, like you Marilyn, I wish more members would contribute on here!! Other Forums I am a member of, thje majority are show breeders and it would be nice to hear things from pet owners too!!

[Maddie]

Genetic diseases in dogs have been with us for a long time. In fact, they probably started when dogs evolved mony millenia ago. Because dogs are biologic mechanisms, as are people and all other living things, they are subject to mutations. As a general rule, mutations are negative, that is, they tend to alter some characteristics of the dog that make the animal less able to weather variations in the enviroment. Some mutations occur in various tissues of the body but do not involve the reproductive cells. These are called SOMATIC MUTATIONS. They may do harm to the body - for instance, cause a cancer to develop - but are not passed on to the next generation.

While in general, mutations are harmful, they are clearly not all harmful, some mutations, were selected for by the early breeders, hundreds of years ago, perhps even thousands of years ago. While we do not know for certain what type of coat the original dog had, we now know there are many variations available genetically, such as wavy, curly, wiry, long, short and even no coat as can be seen in the Chinese Crested. Some of these coat variations were used as a basis for a breed, such as the German Wire-haired dachshund or curly-coated retrievers, although they are not the only basis for these breeds. No matter what is thought about coats in general, it is known the original dogs could not have all these variations. So over the years, mutations occured in the coat genes, causing the variations that we see today. Breeders then selected for coat types they liked and stabilised them by inbreeding to form the more or less uniform coats we see today. The same things happened with eye colour, ear type, coat colour, height, weight and all the other characteristics that allow us to distinguish one breed from another and that distinguish each breeed from the original dog, however the original dog may have looked. In other words these are collections of beneficial mutations that breeders put together and stabilized to form the 400 or 500 distinct breeds known in the world tody.

Sometimes it is easy to tell whether a condition is genetic, but at other times, especiially if there are only one or two cases, it is very difficult to determine whether it is or not and in the final analysis you may not be able to state with certainty that a trait is genetic in origin. For traits that repeatedly occur within a breed the first question to ask is 'is it familial?'. While htere are many situations in which a disorder occurs in multiple members of a litter, in most instances, ths disoprder will not recur in spaced litters unless it is genetic. Genetic traits must follow family lines, and they do occur in multiple, widely-spaced litters. So if a defect occurs among the dogs in your kennel or breeding lines, you must sure the diagnosis is accurate.

If the defect is inhereited in dogs or in other species, then the chances that it is inherited in the affected dogs in your kennel are good. There are of course, PHENOCOPIES - traits that are known to be genetic, but can also be produced by something in the enviroment that tend to confusse the situation. Cleft plate, a defect that occurs in nearly all breeds, is an example of a trait in which phenocopies occur. There are 22 compounds known to cause clweft palate. One of these is an excess of Vitamin A. Other examples are anti-inflammatory drugs like prednisone or prenisolone. If these drugs are given on days 18 through to 21 or are carried over in the body from a slightly earlier treatment, they can cause cleft palate. A trait that occurs in your breed or your breeding lines should be considered to be inherited in your dog unless proven otherwise. Ask yourself whether the MODE of inheritance of the trait is known in your breed, in other breeds or in other species. IOther factors that can cause genetic defects to raise their ugly heads in your dogs athat must be considered are -

trauma
infection
injury
diet
teratogen
toxins
birth injury
chromosomal aberrations
If you cant prove that any of the above cause the trait, problems begin to arise. Here is where a veterinarians 'famous' advice to breeders comes into play. 'Dont worry about it - outcross and even if it is genetic, it will go away'. It is this famous advice that has messed up breeds of dogs from time immemorial. Instead of controlling a trait when there are noe or two dogs or one or two families involved, the dogs have been outcrossed and spread the trait throughout the breed.

To prevent serious genetic diseases in dogs, both in pedigrees and crossbreeds, you only need three things to accomplish this task - KNOWLEDGE INFORMATION & HONESTY.

[Maddie]

Some of the tings which could be done to help control genetic disease are Breed Clubs and breeders getting together and -

They should generate a list of genetic defects occuring in their breed by surveying members and owners. This list should be made available to members and breeders and the mode of inheritance of each trait should be listed if it is known.

They should form committees to assess the impact of each trait on the breed.

They should advocate he registration of dogs and bitches affected with genetic defects and those known to carry genes for these traits in an open registry.

They should advocate he registration of dogs and bitches known to be free of the genes for various undesirable traits.

They should determine which defects should be attacked on a breed-wide basis.

They should develop a brochure discussing the diseases that occur in their breed, giving clinical signs, methods of disagnosiss, including special equipment required, age of onset, mode of inheritance and potential treatments and prognosis. This brochure should be made available to every club member, breeder and owners of dogs of the breed and potential puppy buyers.

They should strongly support those breeders and owners with the honesty and courage and foresight to openly register dogs affected wioth genetic diseases, because there is no hope for control without knowledge. They should clearly state that the ethical course is to openyl discuss dogs with defects ot hose that produce defects when selling a puppy etc. All the peer pressure at their command should be used to support open registration if their goal as a breed club is to bring their dogs as close to perfection healthwise.

[Maddie]

So what evidence is there that shows that genetic disease is a problem in purebred dogs?
There is the general evidence, statements by Vets, breeders and purchasers of purebreds that genetic disease is common in their experience. About 500 genetic diseases have been reported in purebred dogs, and if our diagnostics were better, there would probably be more. If most dogs carried no defective genes or only one defective gene, genetic disease would not be common. You could avoid it with ease. The problem in dogs that compounds the situation is that we also have MATADORS. Matadors are dogs that produce large numbers, perhaps hundreds or even thousands of offspring. These dogs spread the genes over an entire breed so that not only the number of defective genes is carries is high (although no higher than in people), but the frequency of genes for a given set of traits is high (those traits carried by the Matadors). As a result, with many traits in dogs the risk of producing a given defect is just as high with an outcross as with inbreeding.

For the sake of brevity, lets talk about conformation. I have a hard time trying to think of a person trying to breed dogs for conformation using parents that cannot win in the show ring. BUT I HAVE AN EVEN HARDER TIME THINKING of a person using the (for example) Crufts winner for breeding if that dog produces puppies that develop portocaval shunts or HD or entropian and then claim that they are bringing their dogs and their breed to perfection. Thats just plain dumb!!! And plain stupid!!! And plain ignorant!!!! The purpose of a show should be to evaluate dogs competitively matching them against the other dogs in the breed to evaluate their potential value as breeding stock and to HAVE FUN - to take part in the sport of dogs with or without the goal of breeding the winners, with or without winning anything yourself. Showing dogs should be in and of itself fun, being involved in competition should be enjoyable and there shouldnt be any other goal, whether the dogs are used for breeding or not.

Certainly, selecting breeding stock based on phenotype alone is no better, genotype should ALWAYS be considered too. The important points to consider when selecting a dog for breeding should be -

what the grandparents and parents produced
what the parents littermates are like
what the dogs littermates are like
what the dog has produced already in terms of offspring.

There are far more important factors than looking a the phenotype of the dog whether you are breeding for disease control and/or conformation. The conformation of the dog is of major importance of course but it is just one parameter. It is more difficult to hide defects in conformation than it is to hide an incipient case of HD, but breeders do try and hide them, sometimes successfully. 'Hide the defects if you can, certainly don talk about them and if someone asks and spots the defect - throw a rock at them'!!!!!!! I DONT THINK THIS IS THE WAY FORWARD DO YOU???

If we want to make any impact in controlling genetic disease in dogs, we must agree that an ethical approach is based on fairness, opensness and honesty. While traditions are important to us and should reamin important, they should be changed if they conflict with the exercise of our ethics as dog breeders.

[marilyn]

Oh Mad I'm sure its all very interesting but you lost me after the 4th line I'm a simple gal (not stupid though ! ) who reads womens magazines and The Mirror You'd better send me The idiots guide version.
and just picking up on something you said somewhere else I used to be fitter than I am now but one of my legs is playing up. It still takes me a good hour to the park, some play time for Dixie and back so we don't do too bad.

I've just come back from Pets at Home and suprise suprise all the Christmas stuff is in. Its such baloney. I hope people will support their local animal rescue centres or the PDSA and make sure the money goes where its needed.

[crocodile]

Well who am I to argue with someone who has passed their genetic exams with flying rosettes and walks 50 miles a week ....??

Researchers from Imperial College London found that a study of 10 breeds (Akita Innu, Boxer, English Bulldog, Chow Chow, Rough Collie, Greyhound, German Sepherd,Lab Retriever,English Springer Spaniel,Rough Collie ) showed that they had lost more than 90% of the genetic variation they had 35 years ago. A world renowned geneticist at Univ College London said that if breeders insist on going futher down this road he was confident that there was a universe of suffering waiting for many of these breeds - and some of them would not survive. They are so inbred they will not be able to reproduce.
They have found that pugs in the UK are so inbred that although there are 10, 000 of them there are only the equivalent of 50 !
KC favourite person, chief vet of the RSPCA Mark Evans , him of 'parade of mutants' fame has said that ''the welfare and quality of the life of many pedigree dogs is seriously compromised by established breeding practices for appearances driven primarily by the requirments of competition and pedigree dog registration'' .
Not much fun there is there???

I'm sure that everyone who contributes to this forum has the best interest of their dogs at heart. On top of that some love to show their dogs off while others are comitted to helping out with the sad mess that's out there in rescue centres and sanctuaries. One isn't better than the other.

[Tazco]

I'm sure that everyone who contributes to this forum has the best interest of their dogs at heart. On top of that some love to show their dogs off while others are comitted to helping out with the sad mess that's out there in rescue centres and sanctuaries. One isn't better than the other.Quote

Don't think anyone is saying 1 is better than the other, I do both, well I don't show my dog, my breeder does but I love 2 watch the working breeds, u can chat to so many interesting and knowledgeable folks about ur specific breed, yes there r a few who show I wouldn't give the time of day 2, but most love their dogs with a passion, as 4 rescues I always c stands at shows collecting or holding raffles etc, what better place 2 secure financial help than from dog lovers, I support Rott Rescue and Dogs Trust, wish I could do more 2 help, when I have more itme on my hands i'd love 2 foster, somehting 4 the future if I ever get 2 retire early

[Scarlett]

Very interesting and understanderble posts Maddie - I read it as, you passed a breed seminar exam and passed with flying colours and were studying genetics, not that you had passed an exam in genetics and the milage that you walk per week is on par with most Rotties so I dont see why anyone should be sarcastic about either. Surely most heathy dogs are walked a similar distance, if not then perhaps their owners should consider a cat instead.

Re the comment about cancer though, given that parents who recieved vaccines contaminated with SV40 have produced children with cancer who were found to have SV40 in them, is it not at all possible that the same can occur in dogs - have there been any studies to compare if dogs who are not vaccinated get cancer at all or whether unvaccinated dogs from vaccinated parents get cancer? There are many conditions caused by vaccine damage and drug damage that can caused conditions that mimick herditary conditions, MMM can cause entropion for example, all the things that cause destruction of cartilage or proper bone formation etc .....

Re the tails I have not seen any damaged tails in stockier tailed breeds but in breeds with long whip like tails (lurchers-Irish wolf hounds etc) it is very common and often leads to amputation - maybe these types of dogs should be docked, especially when today they are forced to live in unnatural enviroments - such as small houses with doorways (frames) which they waggy sustain repeated injuries on. To my mind docked such breeds is kinder, Worse to me is dogs shut the home all day whilst the owner is at work, through the winter months the owner leaves for work in the dark and gets home in the dark how are these dogs able to get natural daylight and sunlight and the fresh air they need